33 replies to this topic

[dgame]

Hi,

First this is not an attack on Prometheus or any moderator as this behavior is not exclusive to this forum.

Why are links to ROM sites not allowed? What is the danger? What is the liability? What is the problem? What is the concern?

This form of censorship seems commonly accepted and I do not understand why.

I have often wanted to help ‘the community’ find things and usually had to resort to some kind of google-fu to at least help those who are willing to decipher it.


See this helpful post about getting emulation sorted on the Pandora:

http://boards.openpa...dpost__p__76180

and at the bottom:

“This post has been edited by Prometheus: Today, 05:01 PM
Reason for edit: Sorry - I had to remove the pointer to that ROM site.”


Why? Again this is not directed specifically at Prometheus but this is just a recent example.

Why can’t we link to ROM sites? What is the deal?

Thanks!!!

[Caine]

It is illegal in many countries of the world to share ROMs (due to copyright). Sometimes, linking to content is being judged as an act of sharing itself or at least an act of facilitating downloading of copyrighted content. The owners of said copyright can then utilize this to sue whoever is providing those links.

In short, it could be used to bring down the boards and/or associate OpenPandora with copyright infringement and thus put them out of business due to legal battles which they cannot afford.

Aside from this there are also ethical considerations to be made, though I expect the community to be split on those.

[TrashyMG]

Just to add owners of a website are typically liable for the content hosted on it, even if the said content is from another person. So removing the links can prevent litigation.

This can be a sticky situation.. and there been a lot of debate who actually owns the content of a website.

http://venturebeat.c...erated-content/

[Prometheus]

Caine and TrashyMG have summed it up in one go.

My understanding of the laws about this in Germany (which is where the server is, and thus what governs what's allowed here) is that talking about emulation stuff shouldn't be a problem, but that links to (and as far as I can gather, also directly saying "Go to such-and-such a place", which is what I had removed in the example cited by dgame above) and actually providing infringing files are not allowed.

[Morn]

PirateBay got serious legal trial just for hosting torrents and providing trackers (which is in my opinion comparable to sharing direct links).

[Trip]

PirateBay got serious legal trial just for hosting torrents and providing trackers (which is in my opinion comparable to sharing direct links).

True but I never understood why. Shouldn't all search engines get done for the exact same thing? After all that's all they do

[SONY]

IMHO, there are too many contradiction on the net regarding ROMS.

[Tom]

Although it appears to me that there are no actual legal problems with just linking to sites that host various infringing materials, many large corporations maintain teams of powerful, hungry lawyers who would like nothing better than to forcefully argue this point with the owners of this board (in this case, OpenPandora Ltd.).

Therefore, it behooves the moderators to remove anything that might irritate, prod or otherwise stimulate the attention of the aforementioned teams of lawyers.

[Christoph.Krn]

My understanding of the laws about this in Germany (which is where the server is, and thus what governs what's allowed here) is that talking about emulation stuff shouldn't be a problem, but that links to (and as far as I can gather, also directly saying "Go to such-and-such a place", which is what I had removed in the example cited by dgame above) and actually providing infringing files are not allowed.

Emulators themselves are legal (if they don't come with a BIOS that is protected by copyright), and so is talking about them. Any kind of help in getting access to (and/or creating, for instance by burning an illegal ISO) illegal copies of copyright protected material is very problematic (and unethical).

I'm not Ed, but I'm one of the moderators on forum.gp2x.de , and I'm sure that he won't argue about how help or instructions for getting access to or creating illegal copies of copyright protected material should be handled. He is currently on vacation, and he won't check this board as frequently as usual (if at all), so considering some of the more recent posts in here, you or SONY might want to send him a PM to inform him about this thread, (temporarily?) remove (and archive) any content in here that may be interpreted as "help in getting access to (and/or creating) illegal copies of copyright protected material" and lock this thread until Ed is back (which should be today-ish), at which point the discussion /might/ be re-opened by him (even if there's no point in doing so - I'm sure Ed won't argue, he would only explain). As long as Ed isn't here, further discussion of the topic doesn't make sense anyway, and Caine and TrashyMG have already explained the situation very well.

Be aware that I am not a lawyer.

[torpor]

The thing is: there are TOTALLY LEGAL ROMS out there for different systems. I still think it'd be a great idea for someone to make a mega-SD card image that contains emulators already set up and configured and for which totally legal ROMS have been included in the image ..

[ledow]

- Emulators are totally legal, unless they do things that make any software illegal - infringe software patents (which are a stupid idea but still legally enforceable in places), or are made from someone else's code without permission, etc.
- Some ROM's are totally legal. There are MAME ROM's licensed by the original copyright holder and homebrew ROM's that infringe nobody's rights. Hell, the original ZX Spectrum ROM's are licensed by Amstrad for use in emulators specifically - you just can't claim they are yours or sell them commercially without permission.
- Most ROM's that people want, discuss and download are images of commercial, copyrighted games and other software.

In essence, a ROM is no different to a disk image of an Office installation CD, or even an ISO of a PC game. Yes, the game *MIGHT* be freeware, but if not they are still under copyright. Thus most ROM's on the net are 100% illegal because it's not Nintendo, or whoever owns the rights to them, posting them. They are still commercial products (even if no longer sold). It is *illegal* virtually everywhere to copy commercial copyrighted software and distribute to others, and also to download those things from websites, torrents or whatever.

If you have problems with understanding it, just think "Would I be allowed to link to a copy of Microsoft Office with a fake CD key?" If the answer is no for that, then the answer is no for ROM's too. It doesn't even matter if it was Office 2000, or some old game that hasn't been sold in years - it's the same problem. Microsoft would be the original rightsholder and you DON'T have a right to distribute it or obtain it from anyone other than Microsoft-approved resellers.

Linking to such things may not technically be an offence in itself in some special circumstances and legal frameworks, but even in Europe people have been convicted of "incitement to infringe copyright" just by linking to torrents of copyright software on other servers. The law is so uncertain, and will almost certainly err on the side of the copyright holder than some random joe trying to protect his fair-use rights, that without going to court for every single offence, most places just ban the activity because it's just not worth the legal hassle. It may not be illegal to *sell* a card that just-so-happens to decrypt your Sky Movies, or allow you to bypass iTunes DRM, or let you use your PS3 as a generic computer, but for sure you're going to be in court quite quickly and for a long time trying to prove that's the case. Most forum owners can't / don't want that hassle so even discussion that may lead to such links is banned. If nothing else, co-operating with a police investigation is hassle enough for a forum owner that banning such possibilities arising is only a sensible idea.

Basically, if you DO NOT OWN the original rights to a copyrighted work (and you don't, except for things you've created yourself, or where you've bought exclusive rights from the original rightsholders), you can't just go posting it on any website you like and/or enticing people to download it. Similarly, without a valid copyright license to a work, you can't just obtain it from wherever you like and *assume* you have a right to format-shift (i.e. download a title you have a license for but in a format not original licensed - e.g. ROM's of games you own the physical cartridge for) - your copyright licence almost certainly explicitly excludes that and you'd have to fight in court for years with EACH copyright holder to work out if you *are* allowed to do simple things like that. Even buying a game, or a games console, you are only given very limited rights to USE the software and not to go giving it to everyone and his brother. The ROM's burned into an Amiga when you buy it aren't explicitly licensed for use anywhere other than an Amiga. And most games will not run in an Amiga emulator without a copy of the original ROM, which is copyright and NOT explicitly licensed for such use.

Anyone downloading from such sites doesn't actually have a valid license to use that software - if you did, only the original rightsholder (or their authorised resellers) could supply you with that software, not some random site on the Internet. Only the original rightsholder knows if you've licensed their works, and to what extent. Only the original rightsholder can decide to issue you with replacements, repairs, old versions, etc. and it's completely at their discretion within your licensing agreement with them and they can say "No" if they like and you'd have to fight in court to prove you have an entitlement to that.

So anyone running a website with ROM's/games/software on that doesn't have a licence from the original rightsholder is breaking the law (the only exception I can think of is StarROMs that sold legally-licensed Atari ROM's for a while) - no matter how old that software is (Abandonware = 100% illegal), and anyone who uses it - UNLESS THEY ALREADY HAVE THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER'S PERMISSION TO DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING - is almost certainly breaching the terms of their copyright licence and/or illegally copying a copyrighted work. To prove otherwise, you need to go to court.

The people who run Internet forums don't want to defend their users in court over the user's actions. They also don't want to be forced by law to root through all their logs at great expense to identify forums users, or even to have their servers seized while the police do that. If you think that's somehow an imaginary scenario, I suggest you set up your own forum and see how long you survive. Some places on the net escape because of jurisdictional issues, but setting up a UK-based forum, for example, makes you subject to UK law - which does not take kindly to inciting people towards copyright infringement.

If you wouldn't phone Nintendo and tell them what ROM's of theirs you are linking to, you shouldn't be posting it on a forum for your own sake. For the sake of the forum owners sanity and wallet, they won't let you do anything even mildly grey-area in terms of the law. It's just not worth it.

Do you think the local paper would let you advertise a link to a ROM-site within their sponsored adverts? Same thing. They aren't going to be covering your arse in court anyway, and they don't want the hassle of even one solicitor's letter dropping on their doorstep.

[Prometheus]

My understanding of the laws about this in Germany (which is where the server is, and thus what governs what's allowed here) is that talking about emulation stuff shouldn't be a problem, but that links to (and as far as I can gather, also directly saying "Go to such-and-such a place", which is what I had removed in the example cited by dgame above) and actually providing infringing files are not allowed.

Emulators themselves are legal (if they don't come with a BIOS that is protected by copyright), and so is talking about them. Any kind of help in getting access to (and/or creating, for instance by burning an illegal ISO) illegal copies of copyright protected material is very problematic (and unethical).

I'm not Ed, but I'm one of the moderators on forum.gp2x.de , and I'm sure that he won't argue about how help or instructions for getting access to or creating illegal copies of copyright protected material should be handled. He is currently on vacation, and he won't check this board as frequently as usual (if at all), so considering some of the more recent posts in here, you or SONY might want to send him a PM to inform him about this thread, (temporarily?) remove (and archive) any content in here that may be interpreted as "help in getting access to (and/or creating) illegal copies of copyright protected material" and lock this thread until Ed is back (which should be today-ish), at which point the discussion /might/ be re-opened by him (even if there's no point in doing so - I'm sure Ed won't argue, he would only explain). As long as Ed isn't here, further discussion of the topic doesn't make sense anyway, and Caine and TrashyMG have already explained the situation very well.

Be aware that I am not a lawyer.

You are quite right. I've dealt with those posts, and I'm going to do a temporary lock for the moment - my apologies to those participating.

[EvilDragon]

Now that I'm back on track, I can tell you why ROM links can't be posted here.

As someone mentioned, the server is sitting in Germany, so we have to apply to German laws here.
In Germany, the owner of a site is responsible for the full site including all links.
So links to illegal content are, in fact, illegal on any board of a website hosted on a german site as well.

ROM links are okay, as long as they lead to legal ROM sites (i.e. pdroms.de)
Links to illegal rom sites can lead to the server owner (me) being sued for that, and that's something I don't fancy

[tsh]

It kind of surprises me that people even ask these questions. Do people really expect to get everything for free nowadays?

[dgame]

Thanks EvilDragon,

Caine and TrashyMG summed it up for me.

I guess it comes down to overreaching things like when Sony was trying to sue (or subpoena) everyone and anything that even mentioned the PS3 jailbreak.

Sometimes it is not whether you are right wrong, it is whether you can afford to pay the lawyers or not.

[SONY]

It kind of surprises me that people even ask these questions. Do people really expect to get everything for free nowadays?

Well, the problem is "most" downloadable things can be had for free at a click of a button.

[dgame]

It kind of surprises me that people even ask these questions. Do people really expect to get everything for free nowadays?

Should they ban google links as well?

It is not about FREE. The question is why remove links to ROMS sites, many of who even SELL ROMS?

The question was not about links to ROMS it was about links to ROM sites.


I asked a valid question and received several valid answers. Had the thread not been locked I would have replied that I was satisfied earlier.


I guess the only way to get many of these ROMS are "free" as there are no legal alternatives yet.

http://repo.openpandora.org
MAME downloads: 197
MAME4ALL downloads: 386

http://apps.openpandora.org/
MAME downloads: 1226
MAME4ALL downloads: 1622
SDLMAME downloads: 284

http://dl.openhandhelds.org/
mame106.pnd.zip downloads: 728
mame4all-beta7.pnd downloads: 808
sdlmame110.pnd downloads: 211

It is too bad that all of those MAME versions are virtually useless without "free" stuff. Geesh.

[SONY]

Bottom line is it is locked in case of legal implications. Better safe than sorry.

[tsh]

It is not about FREE. The question is why remove links to ROMS sites, many of who even SELL ROMS?

The question was not about links to ROMS it was about links to ROM sites.


I asked a valid question and received several valid answers. Had the thread not been locked I would have replied that I was satisfied earlier.


I guess the only way to get many of these ROMS are "free" as there are no legal alternatives yet.

It was a genuine question. I work with IP, and am interested particularly in the attitude that people who I might work with at some point in the future (i.e. a proportion of the people on these boards) have towards IP. I was also unsure why you thought that it might be OK (which I think you have answered)

You realise that most of the sites selling ROMs have no right to sell them? In that sense, free is better than paid for. But yes, some emulators are fairly useless unless you have the original games (as are quite a few of the game engines).

[Prometheus]

Had the thread not been locked I would have replied that I was satisfied earlier.

My apologies for that. There were posts that had the potential to cause trouble, and the temporary closure was done partly to prevent having to clean up more of those, and also to get some official word from ED.

Sorry about that!

But yes, some emulators are fairly useless unless you have the original games (as are quite a few of the game engines).

There is quite a lot of legally freely (or at least ultra-cheaply) available software, now, though. There is a lot of ex-commercial stuff that's been made freely available by those responsible for it (in my view, the richest pickings for these are the ZX Spectrum and Commodore Amiga selections), as well as plenty of homebrew - there are even some ex-commercial games that have been made available for MAME users. The list isn't even close to being complete or exhaustive.